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#472602 - 12/20/05 10:18 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Anonymous
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As to the anon who wants my mom's school distric out of the "dark ages", the school system used to teach evolution as a theory and now teaches it as accepted fact to "avoid lawsuits". If your school system teaches it as a theory, including the unplugged holes, then I applaud them. Its just not the case around here.
What I was trying to get at and you seem to be avoiding is that you generalized by saying that everyone teaches evolution as fact. In fact, they do not. So, your statement was incorrect. Before you go off on me check out the National Science Teachers Association web site, other curriculum web sites, etc. I think that you will find that teaching it as fact is the exception rather than the rule.
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#472604 - 12/20/05 10:22 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Anon - as I said before, I hope you are correct and that it is the exception, not the rule. From those I know and what I have read in the media, it does not seem that way. That being said, I will retract any implication I made that "everyone" teaches it as fact.
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#472605 - 12/20/05 10:33 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Anonymous
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You are confusing the beliefs (opinions) of a scientist with the underlying science. I have no interest in Richard Dawkins beliefs - in fact as a Christian I find them repugnant! 
Richard Dawkins and many other evolutionist scientists say you can't believe in one without disbelieving the other.
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#472606 - 12/20/05 10:41 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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I guess we can't teach about the big bang theory either? Nuclear physics was once just theoretical too.
The world being flat was also just a theory once too, correct?
Yes, taught by the church. Another theory was that the sun revolved around the earth. Galileo was ex-communicated for trying to disprove that.
I guess the more things change ....
Lol, I bet ONLY the church believed the world was flat right? Wow, what an irresponsible post Straw, lol.
Since at that time the church was the only path to an education, I stand behind it. Unless you can name the various scholastic centers that existed at the time (in Europe) that taught these things?
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#472608 - 12/20/05 10:53 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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I've never quite gotten what the argument between between religion and evolution is. My church (I'm Catholic) has never had a problem with it.
Oh...I'd be awfully careful about that word "never".
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#472609 - 12/20/05 10:56 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Anonymous
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I don't have the slightest trouble accepting microevolution as the cause behind the adaptation of the peppered moth and the growth of finches' beaks. But I don't see that evolutionists have any cause for jubilation there.
It doesn't tell you how the moths and birds and trees got there in the first place. The human body is packed with marvels, eyes and lungs and cells, and evolutionary gradualism can't account for that.
Evolution is the most plausible explanation for life if you're using naturalistic terms, I'll agree with that. That's only because science puts forward evolution and says any other logical explanation is outside of reality.
The intelligent-design movement are asking terribly important questions. To question whether patterns and complexity, at the level of the cell or the universe, bespeak intelligent design is not stupid in the least.
There are extraordinary minds and polemics in the circle of evolutionists, but the evidence doesn't much impress me. I am struck by the breadth of Darwin's claims as opposed to how scanty were the observable changes. If the pure Darwinist account was accurate and life is all about an undirected material process, then Christian metaphysics and religious belief are fantasy. The language of science cuts off choices: Evolution has to be an undirected process or it isn't science.
Then there's the inconvenient fact that most species evolve little during the span of their existence, which leaves the mystery of how to account for evolutionary leaps. The late biologist Stephen Jay Gould speculated that species become isolated and mutate in revolutionary transitions of a few thousand years. That remains a controversial explanation.
The renowned biologist Simon Conway Morris has found many such examples in nature and proposed that it's "near inevitable" that species converge toward an intelligent "solution" to life.
Natural selection? It strengthens existing species, but there's no persuasive reason for believing that natural selection can produce new species and organs. Mutations as a driver of new species? Much too slow to account for grand changes.
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#472610 - 12/20/05 10:59 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Anonymous
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I've never quite gotten what the argument between between religion and evolution is. My church (I'm Catholic) has never had a problem with it.
Oh...I'd be awfully careful about that word "never".
You hear that!!?? Be careful with the word "never." The Jman speaketh. Get off your high horse!
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#472611 - 12/20/05 11:03 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Anonymous
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Don't you love a scolding by Jokerman?
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#472612 - 12/20/05 11:09 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Anonymous
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It beats a scalding by DevilQueen!
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#472614 - 12/20/05 11:54 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Anon, besides my teacher friends and relatives, this is what helped fuel my opinion that it was taught more as fact than theory. I mentioned a case in Texas earlier. I misspoke, it was in Atlanta, GA. A school district put stickers on their science text books stating that “This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered.” This was deemed to "challenge the very science of evolution." Here is a link to the article when the case was filed. Evolution Sticker The judge agreed with the parent/ACLU and ordered the stickers removed. Sorry if I took this to mean too much. I am curious, how does your school system handle the origin of life - how the first single-cell organism came to be? This seems to be the biggest obstacle for evolution (at least in my book). ZD
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#472616 - 12/21/05 01:35 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Anonymous
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Much too slow to account for grand changes.
Billions of years is a very long time. The portion in which humans have existed is a fraction of a fraction.
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#472617 - 12/21/05 01:35 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Anonymous
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I have a question.
How were these things created so that they could evolve?
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#472618 - 12/21/05 02:04 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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The difference is, scientific belief requires facts and reproducable results. Scientific "facts" require four stages; 1) Observation and description of a phenomena. (Have we really observed evolution?)
Oh for pity's sake! Every branch of zoology, biology and botany has documented the (evolutionary) changes within any species you can name.
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2) Formulation of a hypothesis to explain the phenomena. (Well we have this stage).
Well, yes....
3) Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena by predicting quantitatively the results of new observations (in other words, show it happening).
The most current example is the work that was done to predict the evolutionary changes required for the avian flu to spread to humans.
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4) Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent, unbiased experimenters and in controlled conditions. (Never done with evolution).
Again, work on the avian flu, work on drug-resistant tuberculosis. You can find tons of that research in micro-biology.
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#472619 - 12/21/05 02:06 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Intelligent design is no more or less scientific than Darwin’s theory of evolution, thus the word "theory".
Actually, given the total lack of experimental data, reproducible research, and corroboration with other documented observation, ID is quite a bit less scientific than evolutionary theory.
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#472620 - 12/21/05 02:07 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Anonymous
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You raised a good point AML. It is very difficult to duplicate human evolution due to the complexity of the system. Evidence is certainly found at the virus and molecular level.
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#472621 - 12/21/05 02:19 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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I've never quite gotten what the argument between between religion and evolution is. My church (I'm Catholic) has never had a problem with it.
Oh...I'd be awfully careful about that word "never".
 Oh, okay, my church was pretty quiet about evolution for 150 years or so, and then in '94 (or somewhere therein)JPII put out a letter that said evolution doesn't contridct Church teachings.
And this is the same church that put Galileo and many other scientists to death isn't it?
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#472622 - 12/21/05 02:20 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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You mean the big bang theory that has no basis in fact whatsoever?
So it's OK to teach ID/creationsim when there is no factual basis (only faith - you admitted that earlier) but you are holding evolution to a different standard. Nice reasoning.
Indeed I am holding evolution, a scientific hypothesis, to a different standard than my faith. Evolution is being taught in schools because it is "secular science". Intelligent Design is banned from schools for being "religion". If evolution can't be PROVEN, it shouldn't be taught as hard science.
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#472624 - 12/21/05 02:23 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Anonymous
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Science is as much about process as it is about proof.
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#472625 - 12/21/05 02:30 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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..... Mutations as a driver of new species? Much too slow to account for grand changes.
Do you have any idea how long 550 million years* is? 
* The period which multicelllular life has existed on earth.
The length required for such an experiment to be completed does not eliminate the need for such replication for a hypothesis to be proven as a scientific law.
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#472626 - 12/21/05 02:33 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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..... Mutations as a driver of new species? Much too slow to account for grand changes.
Do you have any idea how long 550 million years* is?
* The period which multicelllular life has existed on earth.
The length required for such an experiment to be completed does not eliminate the need for such replication for a hypothesis to be proven as a scientific law.
Ohhhhhkay. Are you willing to accept the experiments and observations already conducted with organisms (insects, for example) with much shorter generational cycles in the meantime?
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