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#629533 - 10/27/06 01:00 AM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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10K Club
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 13,603
Somewhere vanilla
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Quote:
Also, I have no idea what you mean by: "it is a spiritual thing of which any definition can apply to the concept."
but that's the most important part!
who's spiritual definition are you supporting?
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#629535 - 10/27/06 02:16 AM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Power Poster
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,121
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Quote:
Straw, to answer your question...yes. My point is that we live in a country where majority rules. That doesn't make either side narrow minded or thoughtless.
Actually, our entire constitution is designed to thwart the majority.
The Senate, the electoral college, judicial review, the 2000 election, etc.
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#629537 - 10/27/06 12:35 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Power Poster
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,994
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I see it as a simple issue of respect. For those opposed, I don't see you showing a lot of respect to these people. Period. When they can't have the same basic rights as other married couples (purely legal - not religion) then you are going to have a hard time convincing me you have respect for these couples.
The feeble attempts to link it to hatred of Bush (tiresome, but not surprising) are bizarre at best.
_________________________
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
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#629538 - 10/27/06 12:47 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Power Poster
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,121
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Quote:
Ah, the good old 2000 election risies to the surface again. The W stole.
True colors shine! Damn that Bush guy! That....no I will not go there.
For six years this has festered. Bushy stole victory from us! And for six years, nothing he has done has ever been the right thing. And damn him for controlling the senate and the house! We cannot force our agenda on him.
We'll get this guy! We'll do whatevewr iot takes to take him down. Lie, slant stories, fake the news, anything. This is war!
Goodnight Dan! Even fake and made up stories do not work!
No, I mentioned the 2000 election as an example of how our system does not equate to majority rules. The 2000 election was a modern example of the electoral college at work, where the candidate who received a majority of the popular vote did not win the presidency.
Nothing about "stealing" an election; that is nonsense and it is too bad your partisan blinders are so thick you cannot see that.
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#629539 - 10/27/06 01:15 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Power Poster
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,275
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Quote:
Rainman,
Silly me! I simply failed to comprehend that reducing certain citizen's rights promised under their state constitution was really an expression of the degree of care, respect and love you feel for them.
The phrase "Please do not do me any favors." comes immediately to mind. I don't know how much of your care, respect and love I could stand if that is how they are expressed.
Again, this is why the state should simply get out of the marriage business. I have no problem with providing gay couples the opportunity to have all of the same legal advantages as heterosexual couples. But to call it a marriage is a societal stamp of approval; that's asking me to agree that it's right.
By your definition, in order to respect you, it appears that I have to agree that everything you do is right and good. Not just accept that you can do it, but actually approve of it. (Otherwise, why would it not be satisfactory to recognize the legal union without calling it marriage?) Sorry, but that's not respect. Respect is when we agree to disagree and work to find a mutually satisfactory solution that honors the position of both sides.
And btw, you can color it as "reducing certain citizens rights . . ." but that's a cheap way to avoid the argument about the substantive issue. Until this decision, those rights were not constitutionally recognized in NJ. The questions are: 1) was the decision a good one? and 2) what should the state do in light of this decision - marriage for all, or marriage for heteros and legally equivalent "union" for gay & lesbian couples? Apparently, you don't even want to talk about those issues, just tell people who disagree with you that it's because they hate gays.
_________________________
Nobody's perfect, not even a perfect stranger.
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#629540 - 10/27/06 01:15 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
: ____________ can marry more than one person but I can not."?
It's not that hard. Single people can marry more people than they currently have, why can't I?
It's not hard if you change the question entirely, but that isn't what I asked, is it?
Who can legally marry more than one person at a time????? Until you can answer that there is no equal protection argument for polygamy.
Who can legally marry someone of the same sex? Noone. But that question was asked and now people are demanding the right to do so. So, you can make up a question that's harder to answer, or you can except that the next questions coming down the pipeline (maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but some day and for the rest of our lives) will be polygamy, incest, and beastiality.
Here's another answer for you since you only want a fill in the blanks.
" Divorcees can marry more than one person, but I cannot."
The problem is, it's not so simple.
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#629541 - 10/27/06 01:18 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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Quote:
I see it as a simple issue of respect. For those opposed, I don't see you showing a lot of respect to these people. Period. When they can't have the same basic rights as other married couples (purely legal - not religion) then you are going to have a hard time convincing me you have respect for these couples.
The feeble attempts to link it to hatred of Bush (tiresome, but not surprising) are bizarre at best.
Marriage isn't a RIGHT, it is a SACRAMENT.
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#629543 - 10/27/06 01:43 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Power Poster
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,994
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Until the government gets out of marriage it isn't a sacrament it's a legal institution. If it were only about religion there would be no lisence requirements and it wouldn't matter who married you.
_________________________
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
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#629544 - 10/27/06 02:23 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 19,938
Pulling people out of the ditc...
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The 2000 election was a modern example of the electoral college at work, where the candidate who received a majority of the popular vote did not win the presidency.
I'll admit that my American History is a tad rusty, but I seem to remember at least 2 other occurrences where teh electorla college voted against the majority. There is no guarantee in our system that says the popular vote will elect the president...
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Providing alternative truths since the invention of time
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#629545 - 10/27/06 02:40 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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10K Club
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 13,603
Somewhere vanilla
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Quote:
Marriage isn't a RIGHT, it is a SACRAMENT.
be very careful here, BF. are you saying we should codify christianity's take on marriage? we can't you know. follow my dialougue with rainman in this thread if you don't see where this is going.
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#629546 - 10/27/06 02:39 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
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Oh, thank God you are here, Ron - who knows what kind of chicanery we might get into otherwise!!!
LOL
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#629550 - 10/27/06 03:18 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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10K Club
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 13,603
Somewhere vanilla
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Quote:
Quote:
Oh, thank God you are here, Ron - who knows what kind of chicanery we might get into otherwise!!!
LOL
I was thinking the same thing. Does this mean the end of the world is upon us? 
so what do you make the argument i suggested other than your hypocritical insult, SP?
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#629551 - 10/27/06 03:20 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Power Poster
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,559
Foxboro
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#629553 - 10/27/06 03:31 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 13,603
Somewhere vanilla
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Quote:
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who's spiritual definition are you supporting?
Exactly! Neither definition is less "spiritual" or "religious" than the other. They simply come from opposing spiritual or religious viewpoints.
so i think we are on the same page? 
but to say marriage is only between a man and a woman will require an amendment to be sure. this comes down to christian-based people not wanting others to call their unions "marriage". all semantics from where i sit. like i said, i only care that people are treated equally and fairly.
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#629554 - 10/27/06 03:26 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,275
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Or it comes down to other people wanting "christian-based people" to call their unions "marriage" (which hasn't been the case before and requires a change in the law).
_________________________
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#629556 - 10/27/06 03:33 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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Quote:
Or it comes down to other people wanting "christian-based people" to call their unions "marriage" (which hasn't been the case before and requires a change in the law).
Remember, our laws are based on Christian principles from Christian peoples. So, marriage was already defined as a union of man and wife. Until now, everyone understood that, just as everyone understood that a woman is an adult female. Until recently, it didn't NEED an explanation.
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#629557 - 10/27/06 03:54 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Diamond Poster
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,044
The banana bin
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I don't get it. I really don't. My dad and his partner were together 23 years until he died. If they had gotten married or had a legal civil union...who does it hurt?
I see a lot of back and forth here and I'm trying to give a real life look at it. As a child of a gay parent, I have experienced and witnessed such unimaginable hate from people. It's amazing that so many people act the way they do over something so...silly. When it comes down to it, we're talking about adults who are in love and want to share their lives together. They want equal protection that other couples have under the law.
All I ask for those people that oppose civil unions (I call it marriage but let's take baby steps here. You can't change the world over night) is to have some empathy. Imagine what it's like to be on the receiving end of such disdain and sometimes hate. Just imagine it.
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My opinions are definately my own. I could be wrong. But I don't think so.
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DQ - what ever happened to those?
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