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#629583 - 10/27/06 06:25 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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10K Club
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 18,789
TX
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CB,
What I think is that all these people who fight giving basic rights to gay couples create a culture that allows the cruelty you have experienced to fester and grow. I hope one day our nation can move past things as insignificant as who we each choose to love and share our lives with and focus on real problems in our nation.
See here's the problem, it's not just about "who you love". It's HOW you love and what KIND of love. It's fine for a man to love a man or a woman to love a woman. It is fine for a mother to love her son. It is NOT fine for a mother to marry her son. This is an abomination against God. Allowing our government to say incest is just fine and dandy shouldn't happen. Homosexual marriages are the same.
Love all you want, but do not give out kudos for sex with whatever you want or marriage to whatever you want.
BF...just to clarify...
Please tell me you're not comparing homosexuality to incest.....???? 
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#629584 - 10/27/06 06:28 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,004
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"The unrighteous shall not inherit God's kingdom. Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who lie with men, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous..."
Based on that I'd say 99.9% of the world is not going to inherit God's kingdom.
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With the lights out, it's less dangerous.
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#629586 - 10/27/06 06:33 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Diamond Poster
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,894
Texas
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You are right about the 99.9%, but that is what repentance is for right??
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"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey!!!"
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#629588 - 10/27/06 06:35 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
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Quote:
Quote:
"The unrighteous shall not inherit God's kingdom. Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who lie with men, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous..."
Based on that I'd say 99.9% of the world is not going to inherit God's kingdom.
Absent the redemptive work of Christ, the number is 100%.
CB, I agree with you that it is cruel for someone to tell a child that their parent is going to [censored], whatever moral failing the person is taking upon themselves to judge. That is not what Christ asked his followers to do. However, my position that society has a right to define what marriage is, and my position that marriage ought to be defined as one man and one woman, is not cruel, and it is not responsible for the boneheaded statements that anyone else might make.
That is as ludicrous as saying that anyone who criticized Janet Reno is responsible for the OKC bombing.
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#629589 - 10/27/06 06:40 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Power Poster
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,994
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
"The unrighteous shall not inherit God's kingdom. Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who lie with men, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous..."
Based on that I'd say 99.9% of the world is not going to inherit God's kingdom.
Absent the redemptive work of Christ, the number is 100%.
CB, I agree with you that it is cruel for someone to tell a child that their parent is going to [censored], whatever moral failing the person is taking upon themselves to judge. That is not what Christ asked his followers to do. However, my position that society has a right to define what marriage is, and my position that marriage ought to be defined as one man and one woman, is not cruel, and it is not responsible for the boneheaded statements that anyone else might make.
That is as ludicrous as saying that anyone who criticized Janet Reno is responsible for the OKC bombing.
I find plenty of your analysis ludicrous, too. You are the Yin to my Yang. 
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If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
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#629590 - 10/27/06 06:42 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Diamond Poster
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,894
Texas
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I don't think I'm missing any point. I was merely stating the reason I believe so many Christians are opposed to gay marriage or union or whatever you want to call it.
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#629591 - 10/27/06 06:53 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Power Poster
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,121
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Quote:
Quote:
CB,
What I think is that all these people who fight giving basic rights to gay couples create a culture that allows the cruelty you have experienced to fester and grow. I hope one day our nation can move past things as insignificant as who we each choose to love and share our lives with and focus on real problems in our nation.
See here's the problem, it's not just about "who you love". It's HOW you love and what KIND of love. It's fine for a man to love a man or a woman to love a woman. It is fine for a mother to love her son. It is NOT fine for a mother to marry her son. This is an abomination against God. Allowing our government to say incest is just fine and dandy shouldn't happen. Homosexual marriages are the same.
Love all you want, but do not give out kudos for sex with whatever you want or marriage to whatever you want.
What if my God doesn't believe this?
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#629592 - 10/27/06 06:43 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Diamond Poster
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,894
Texas
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There is only one God!
_________________________
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey!!!"
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#629594 - 10/27/06 06:48 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Diamond Poster
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,894
Texas
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They can be saved if they repent.
_________________________
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey!!!"
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#629596 - 10/27/06 06:51 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Diamond Poster
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,894
Texas
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Only one man was perfect. We all sin no matter how we try to obide the rules.
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"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey!!!"
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#629597 - 10/27/06 07:08 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Power Poster
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,350
The he11 of suburbia
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Only one man was perfect.
Although I come close 
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#629600 - 10/27/06 07:16 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Power Poster
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,121
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
CB,
What I think is that all these people who fight giving basic rights to gay couples create a culture that allows the cruelty you have experienced to fester and grow. I hope one day our nation can move past things as insignificant as who we each choose to love and share our lives with and focus on real problems in our nation.
See here's the problem, it's not just about "who you love". It's HOW you love and what KIND of love. It's fine for a man to love a man or a woman to love a woman. It is fine for a mother to love her son. It is NOT fine for a mother to marry her son. This is an abomination against God. Allowing our government to say incest is just fine and dandy shouldn't happen. Homosexual marriages are the same.
Love all you want, but do not give out kudos for sex with whatever you want or marriage to whatever you want.
What if my God doesn't believe this?
Mine doesn't believe it. Mine says that all sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord and that all humans are sinners.
And my God doesn't believe that all humans are sinners.
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#629602 - 10/27/06 07:45 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 10,395
Jersey Shore
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And btw, you can color it as "reducing certain citizens rights . . ." but that's a cheap way to avoid the argument about the substantive issue. Until this decision, those rights were not constitutionally recognized in NJ. The questions are: 1) was the decision a good one? and 2) what should the state do in light of this decision - marriage for all, or marriage for heteros and legally equivalent "union" for gay & lesbian couples?
Then let's discuss the substantive issues:
In the New Jersey constitution; Article 1, p. 1 says that people have the natural and unalienable right to obtain and pursue happiness. In the NJ Anti-Discrimination Act, it is prohibited to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation (among other classifications) in access to government services and public accommodation,
There are 2 main issues from the petitioners side:
1.if marriage is defined strictly as between opposite sexes, then couples are denied the right to marry the person of their choice, and so have no real right to marry. Prohibiting them from a real right to marry, violates, the plaintiffs argue, both the constitution and the anti-discrimination act.
2.the Domestic Partnership Act gives, some, but by no means all, of the benefits and protections automatically granted to married persons, and where the protections fail, there is no effective recourse. (I guess the short way of saying this is that civil unions, as they are defined, are not an effective substitute for marriage.)
The State Attorney's arguments, or the State's 'compelling interest' in maintaining the apparent inequity, focused only on maintaining the 'traditional definition' of marriage.
Arguments/points raised by the NJ Supreme Court Justices have included:
"the state recognizes that gay couples can raise children, adopt children, send them to school, in our communities as police officers, firefighters, teachers, every profession, every trade... and after giving that particular recognition,then you say, but the tradition that still maintains or should maintain and should not be touched even under equal protection argument is that they cannot marry. Don't all of those things undercut your tradition argument?"
"The United States Supreme Court has said that separate but equal was not tenable under the U.S. Constitution. There wasn't a question of whether the majority of people agreed or did not agree with that."
At one point it seems the Justices asked the State's Attorney to specify how same-sex marriage would harm heterosexual marriage, and did not get a substantive response.
"But if there is no harm to heterosexual marriage, that is the two co-exist side by side–they're both marriage, then what is the state then resting on, just that there's been a definition for a long time?"
"You say it over and over again, it is a historical fact, as Justice Long has pointed out, that marriage has been defined as between a man and a woman, but there are other historical facts that for a long time, women were property in the marriage relationship. For a long time, euhm(?), women could not make a claim of rape against a husband. There've been lots of ways in which the traditional idea of marriage and the relationship of marriage has changed, so why whould we just simply defer?"
"Are you suggesting that the legislature has somehow determined that allowing same-sex marriage, in some way harms or diminishes mixed-sex marriage–and if that's true, what could that possibly be based? What's the factual evidence?"
"Why is the state not advancing procreation or child-rearing as rationals for this?"
*********************************
My answer to your questions:
1. the decision was the correct one, or at least the correct questions are being asked.
2. The State of New Jersey should permit marriage for both mixed gender and same gender couples.
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#629603 - 10/27/06 08:18 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
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Quote:
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...my position that society has a right to define what marriage is, and my position that marriage ought to be defined as one man and one woman, is not cruel, and it is not responsible for the boneheaded statements that anyone else might make.
That is as ludicrous as saying that anyone who criticized Janet Reno is responsible for the OKC bombing.
I find plenty of your analysis ludicrous, too.
I suppose that if you can't see the faults, I'll have to rely on the readers.
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#629604 - 10/27/06 08:36 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Diamond Poster
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,044
The banana bin
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At one point it seems the Justices asked the State's Attorney to specify how same-sex marriage would harm heterosexual marriage, and did not get a substantive response.
Because, in my opinion, there isn't one.
Quote:
"But if there is no harm to heterosexual marriage, that is the two co-exist side by side–they're both marriage, then what is the state then resting on, just that there's been a definition for a long time?"
"You say it over and over again, it is a historical fact, as Justice Long has pointed out, that marriage has been defined as between a man and a woman, but there are other historical facts that for a long time, women were property in the marriage relationship. For a long time, euhm(?), women could not make a claim of rape against a husband. There've been lots of ways in which the traditional idea of marriage and the relationship of marriage has changed, so why whould we just simply defer?"
Exactly.
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My opinions are definately my own. I could be wrong. But I don't think so.
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#629605 - 10/27/06 08:51 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,994
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I also love the people who say, "this is never going to happen" because there were a whole bunch of people saying that about things like voting rights, desegregation, banning school prayer, etc.
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If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
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#629606 - 10/27/06 08:47 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Diamond Poster
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,894
Texas
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Or about going to the moon. lol
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#629607 - 10/27/06 08:52 PM
Re: NJ passes civil rights law for homosexuals
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Power Poster
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,275
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Thanks, AML
So it appears that the NJ Constitution is interpreted to provide equal protection on the basis of sexual orientation. Since marriage is a "service" or benefit provided by the government, the government's action in failing to provide that benefit to same sex couples violates the constitution. That makes the case relatively straightforward. From my cursory review of the decision, I'm not going to argue with the court's reasoning on this case. (Apparently they've already created an equal protection clause in the NJ constituion even though it's not actually written in it, and have held that the equal protection applies to sexual orientation, but that's a different issue.)
My question still is, if the Domestic Partnership Act can be amended to confer all of the benefits available in marriage, why would that not be satisfactory?
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