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#307198 - 01/23/05 03:31 AM Reopened Debt Elimination Scams
truth192 Offline
New Poster
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4
I decided to reopen his post, because the other one was locked before a proper rebuttal to all the propaganda to the other posts could be submitted.

First of all I don't know if the debt elimination processes you are referring to are legitimate or not… but make no mistake there are programs out there, which are fighting the real scam, which is of course the Federal Reserve system and fractional reserve banking.

All of these arguments come back to one issue: Does a bank, that participates in the current system have any real equitable risk when they create loan?

It's a misnomer to call current lending practices a “loan”. Because it is not a loan. It lacks the basic elements of a true loan. There is no consideration, there's no exchange of equitable risk, there's no meeting of the minds.

When I go into a bank, I assumed when I asked for loan, I would receiving an exchange… the bank’s (or depositors and investors capital) for my promissory note. Well that's not what happens is it.

The bank accepts the signed promissory note turns over endorsed it or attaches an allonge, and in deposits the note as if it were cash. The asset side of the ledger is increased by the value of the promissory note. Then the bank gives the maker of the note a check. Where did the money that fund the check originate from? The depositors?…. The investors? No! The check was funded from the deposit or the sale of that promissory note. The funds did not exist before the maker of the note came into the equation.

Here is how processes described in the Federal Reserve publication "Modern Money Mechanics” published by the Federal Reserve bank of Chicago 1992.

“…If business is active, the banks with excess reserves probably will have opportunities to loan the $9,000. Of course, they do not really pay out loans from the money they receive as deposits. If they did this, no additional money would be created. What they do when they make loans is to accept promissory notes in exchange for credits to the borrowers' transaction accounts. Loans (assets) and deposits (liabilities) both rise by $9,000. Reserves are unchanged by the loan transactions. But the deposit credits constitute new additions to the total deposits of the banking system. See illustration 3.”

So if you bankers, simply create a bookkeeping entry, and convert our promissory notes into commercial paper and use them to fund the alleged loan, why should we not be out trying to find ways to remedy this fraud and eliminate debt. Bankers have been doing this way for the last 90 years. Now because the cat is out of bag, and in a small percentage of people are making you prove you actually risk something in these alleged loans, you turnaround and call it a scam.

If you want no more check out this web site, this is a former bank auditor/CPA who decided to write couple of books about all of fraud and concealment he found while working within the Federal Reserve banking system.

http://bankhonesty.com/

Also try putting in "Walker Todd" into google, you'll find he is a former general counsel for the Federal Reserve bank of Cleveland until the retired and decided to become an expert witness in litigation against the banks, showing that the Federal Reserve System exists for the sole purpose of bankrupting United States of America

And if you're reading his post and you're not a banker or think what I'm saying to lie... try going to your bank and ask to see your promissory note. Demand to see the original, not copy. Well I'm sure you be surprised to find out that they don't have it. Because they sold it. Then go look up under uniform commercial code "UCC 3 holder in due course" find out if your bank even has standing to collect on that promissory note when they don't even own it, or have possession of it.

Come on people, anyone with a junior high school education could see the fraud once they understand the way this really works.

Please, please some banker out there must be able to put me in my place and show that I am mistaken. Bring it on.

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Security - PUBLIC
#307199 - 01/23/05 04:12 PM Re: Reopened Debt Elimination Scams
Anonymous
Unregistered

Sorry for the anon post but I don't want my employer to know this is me.

You can rant and rave all you want about banks and how illegal it is for them to "issue debt" or "loans" or whatever. I (a banker) have a customer who is operating a debt elimination scam. Yes, it IS a scam. The money that these people are paying him to "eliminate" their debt (and it is a LOT of money) should be used to pay their credit card debt. By NOT paying their debt, which they incurred by purchasing things that they are in possession of, makes them nothing more than thieves in my book.

What is most interesting is that the individual with the account at my bank who is running this scam claims on his website that banks cannot issue debt via credit cards....BUT....he pays HIS OWN credit card bills religiously every month! Why would he be doing this? Why not practice what he preaches? And trust me, he is living QUITE well off of the money that these people are sending him.

Come on people.....WAKE UP!

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#307200 - 01/23/05 05:54 PM Re: Reopened Debt Elimination Scams
Elwood P. Dowd Offline
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Elwood P. Dowd
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 21,939
Next to Harvey
Truth,
Thank you for your support. I've encouraged BOL to require meaningful registration from all posters. I'm certain that if they attract enough nut jobs posting in serious threads (while probably engaging in self promotion) they will eventually capitulate.
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In this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant.

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#307201 - 01/23/05 06:09 PM Re: Reopened Debt Elimination Scams
Kathleen O. Blanchard Offline

10K Club
Kathleen O. Blanchard
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 21,293
I support registration to avoid this type of waste of time and space. It wouldn't be so bad if the posts made sense.
_________________________
Kathleen O. Blanchard, CRCM "Kaybee"
HMDA/CRA Training/Consulting/Mapping
The HMDA Academy
www.kaybeescomplianceinsights.com

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#307202 - 01/23/05 06:10 PM Re: Reopened Debt Elimination Scams
Kathleen O. Blanchard Offline

10K Club
Kathleen O. Blanchard
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 21,293
Anon, I can't reply via pm since you are anon. Please sign on and PM either Ken or I regarding your post.

Kaybee
_________________________
Kathleen O. Blanchard, CRCM "Kaybee"
HMDA/CRA Training/Consulting/Mapping
The HMDA Academy
www.kaybeescomplianceinsights.com

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#307203 - 01/23/05 07:58 PM Re: Reopened Debt Elimination Scams
truth192 Offline
New Poster
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4
first of all, I'll make it clear that I don't operate nor am I trying to market any debt elimination product. I am not associated with any antigovernment or anti IRS.

I have just read enough information from credible sources to make me question the legitimacy of the current banking system.

I'm trying to create a meaningful debate. Someone please correct me if I am misinformed. Someone please rebut my facts, one by one, that I presented in the previous post.

If this is not how fractional reserve banking works, tell us how does then, if loans are not created from bookkeeping entries and the deposits of converted promissory notes... where is the money come from?

If how I described it is correct, please give me some rebuttal on why a loan agreement based on this type of lending would not be unconscionable, or void on its inception because it lacks all the basic ingredients of a lawful contract:

1. consideration, if the loan was created from the proceeds of the monetization of the promissory note, how could the bank construe this money as their valuable consideration? In order to have consideration, you have to have equitable risk. There is no equitable risk in this transaction!

2. all contracts require a meaningful meeting of the minds. did my banker disclose in writing that he was not loaning me money that the bank was in control of before I came in...No. did my banker disclose that they would use the signature on my promissory note, in order to to turn it into commercial paper, stamp it on the back "pay to the order of ABC bank without recourse"... No. Tell me if these promissory notes are not negotiable commercial paper, why are they indorsed in this manner?

All I am asking is someone to provide some basic provable facts that rebut the points have provided.

How embaressing, do you people not even understand how the banks you work at even operate?

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#307204 - 01/24/05 02:53 PM Re: Reopened Debt Elimination Scams
JacF Offline

Power Poster
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,719
PA
Quote:

I have just read enough information from credible sources


Could you cite the sources, please?

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#307205 - 01/24/05 04:30 PM Re: Reopened Debt Elimination Scams
beaconpaul Offline
100 Club
beaconpaul
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 218
Minnesota
My understanding of this issue is that the eliminatio part is funded by a bond, then the client is urged to refinance to pay a bunch of fees. My question is two-fold.

1. if the whole mortgage loan part is a fraud, what about the worthless bond that the bank can't get redeemed? Then, why refinance? If this is so wrong, why doesn't the DE company take out a mortgage against company assets and pay off my debt themselves directly? They can take some risk for the fee income.

2. The current monetary system was also conceived/created to allow economic expansion. I can't barter anything because I can't find enough people to provide me the things I need, like food and stuff. I want you to get together with 10 people, pool together $2,000. Now, provide everything you need to exist to each other from making, creating or growing everything. You can buy stuff from each other, but the 10 of you can only use the original amount of currency because it is backed by gold. Don't let any one person get all the gold, you could be in trouble, also you can't leave your little closed economy.

frustrated yet? great, now you invent an economy that is perfect.

These debt eliminations deals make me want to puke. If we would all be nice to each other we wouldn't need so many laws and contracts. I just read a thread an another site and I had to quit before I over-heated. I hope this doesn't get edited, I really tried to hold my tongue.
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#307206 - 01/24/05 05:29 PM Re: Reopened Debt Elimination Scams
truth192 Offline
New Poster
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4
Quote:

Quote:

I have just read enough information from credible sources


Could you cite the sources, please?




From The Horses Mouth: The Federal Reserve on Monetizing Your Promissory Note



MODERN MONEY MECHANICS – Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago

"The actual process of money creation takes place primarily in banks. As noted earlier, checkable liabilities of banks are money. These liabilities are customers' accounts. They increase when customers deposit currency and checks and when the proceeds of loans made by the banks are credited to borrowers' accounts..."

"In the absence of legal reserve requirements, banks can build up deposits by increasing loans and investments so long as they keep enough currency on hand to redeem whatever amounts the holders of deposits want to convert into currency. This unique attribute of the banking business was discovered many centuries ago...

"Then, bankers discovered that they could make loans merely by giving their promises to pay, or bank notes, to borrowers. In this way, banks began to create money. More notes could be issued than the gold and coin on hand because only a portion of the notes outstanding would be presented for payment at any one time. Enough metallic money had to be kept on hand, of course, to redeem whatever volume of notes was presented for payment...

Transaction deposits are the modern counterpart of bank notes. It was a small step from printing notes to making book entries crediting deposits of borrowers, which the borrowers in turn could 'spend' by writing checks, thereby 'printing' their own money. – page 3

"If business is active, the banks with excess reserves probably will have opportunities to loan the $9,000. Of course, they do not really pay out loans from the money they receive as deposits. If they did this, no additional money would be created. What they do when they make loans is to accept promissory notes in exchange for credits to the borrowers' transaction accounts. Loans (assets) and deposits (liabilities) both rise by $9,000. Reserves are unchanged by the loan transactions. But the deposit credits constitute new additions to the total deposits of the banking system..." – page 6




I BET YOU THOUGHT… - Federal Reserve Bank of New York

"Banks create money by monetizing debt." For example, if the Fractional Reserve is 10%, a bank that has on deposit $1 million (10% of $10 million) can loan an additional $9 million, money the banks don't actually have- they've created money!

Checkbook money is ‘created’ by currency deposits. Commercial banks create checkbook money whenever they grant a loan, simply by adding new deposit dollars to accounts on their books in exchange for a borrower’s IOU.

Money creation bookkeeping isn’t gimmickry. Far from it. Banks are creating money based on a borrower’s promise to repay (the IOU), which, in turn, is often secured or backed by valuable items the borrower owns (collateral).

Banks create money by ‘monetizing’ the private debts of business, individuals and governments. That is, they create amounts of money against the value of those IOU’s.

To create money, however, banks must have ‘excess’ reserves, funds exceeding those they are legally required to hold.

If a bank has excess reserves, it can create an amount of money equal to the excess; it can grant a loan. Borrowers write checks against their new deposits. When these checks are deposited at other banks, those banks collect payment form the borrower’s bank. Bankers know that when other banks present borrower’s checks for payment, they will have to transfer reserves on a dollar-for-dollar basis.

Deposit creation, rather than currency deposits, accounts for most of the $375 billion of checkbook money.– page 27




MONEY, BANKING & MONETARY POLICY – Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas

It may not seem to make much sense, but banks actually ‘create’ money when they lend it. - page 9

Banks actually create money when they lend it. Because the loan becomes a new deposit, just like a paycheck does… – page 11






TWO FACES OF DEBT – Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago

Other characteristics that vary with types of debt are the collateral a borrower offers, if any, the contractual arrangement for payment of interest and principal, and the negotiability of the debt instrument itself. – page 1

In addition to issuing securities, the federal government, through the Federal Reserve System, issues non-interest-bearing debt-currency or paper money. Currency is so widely accepted as a medium of exchange that most people do not think of it as a debt. Technically, however, Federal Reserve notes are liabilities. – page 4

Debt provides a money creation function. It also provides a means of creating entirely new funds...

But a depositor’s balance also rises when the depository institution extends credit – either by granting a loan to or buying securities from the depositor. In exchange for the note or security, the lending or investing institution credits the depositor’s account or gives a check that can be deposited at yet another depository institution.

New money has been brought into existence by expansion of depository institution credit. – page 18 & 19





POINTS OF INTEREST – Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago

Banks and Deposit Creation

Depository institutions, which for simplicity we will call banks, are different from other financial institutions because they offer transaction accounts and make loans by lending deposits. This deposit creation activity, essentially creating money, affects interest rates because there deposits are part of savings, the source of the supply of credit.

Banks create deposits by making loans. Rather than handing cash to borrowers, banks simply increase balances in borrowers’ checking accounts. Borrows can then draw checks to pay for goods and services. This creation of checking accounts through loans is just as much a deposit as one we might make by pushing a ten-dollar bill through the teller’s window.

With all of the nation’s banks able to increase the supply of credit in this fashion, credit could conceivably expand without limit. – page 7





BANKING AND MONETARY POLICY  Federal Reserve Bank of Texas

“…banks create money when they lend it. The loan becomes a new deposit into the customer’s checking account just like a payroll check does”- page 11



These are all quoted verbatum right out of Federal Reserve Pubications

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#307207 - 01/24/05 05:38 PM Re: Reopened Debt Elimination Scams
truth192 Offline
New Poster
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4
"The few who understand the system, will either be so interested from it's profits or so dependant on it's favors, that there will be no opposition from that class." -- Rothschild Brothers of London,1863

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" -- Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild

"Most Americans have no real understanding of the operation of the international money lenders. The accounts of the Federal Reserve System have never been audited. It operates outside the control of Congress and manipulates the credit of the United States" -- Sen. Barry Goldwater (Rep. AR)

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce." -- James A. Garfield, President of the United States

"Banks lend by creating credit. They create the means of payment out of nothing" -- Ralph M. Hawtrey, Secretary of the British Treasury

"To expose a 15 Trillion dollar rip-off of the American people by the stockholders of the 1000 largest corporations over the last 100 years will be a tall order of business." -- Buckminster Fuller

"Every Congressman, every Senator knows precisely what causes inflation...but can't, [won't] support the drastic reforms to stop it [repeal of the Federal Reserve Act] because it could cost him his job." -- Robert A. Heinlein, Expanded Universe

"The regional Federal Reserve banks are not government agencies. ...but are independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations." -- Lewis vs. United States, 680 F. 2d 1239 9th Circuit 1982

"We have, in this country, one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board. This evil institution has impoverished the people of the United States and has practically bankrupted our government. It has done this through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it". -- Congressman Louis T. McFadden in 1932 (Rep. Pa)

"The Federal Reserve banks are one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever seen. There is not a man within the sound of my voice who does not know that this nation is run by the International bankers -- Congressman Louis T. McFadden (Rep. Pa)

"Some people think the Federal Reserve Banks are the United States government's institutions. They are not government institutions. They are private credit monopolies which prey upon the people of the United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign swindlers" -- Congressional Record 12595-12603 -- Louis T. McFadden, Chairman of the Committee on Banking and Currency (12 years) June 10, 1932

"[Every circulating FRN] represents a one dollar debt to the Federal Reserve system." – Money Facts, House Banking and Currency Committee

"...the increase in the assets of the Federal Reserve banks from 143 million dollars in 1913 to45 billion dollars in 1949 went directly to the private stockholders of the [federal reserve] banks." -- Eustace Mullins

"As soon as Mr. Roosevelt took office, the Federal Reserve began to buy government securities at the rate of ten million dollars a week for 10 weeks, and created one hundred million dollars in new [checkbook] currency, which alleviated the critical famine of money and credit, and the factories started hiring people again." -- Eustace Mullins

"By this means government may secretly and unobserved, confiscate the wealth of the people, and not one man in a million will detect the theft."--John Maynard Keynes (the father of 'Keynesian Economics' which our nation now endures) in his book "THE ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES OF THE PEACE" (1920).

"These 12 corporations together cover the whole country and monopolize and use for private gain every dollar of the public currency..." -- Mr. Crozier of Cincinnati, before Senate Banking and Currency Committee – 1913

"A great industrial nation is controlled by it's system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the world--no longer a government of free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men." --President Woodrow Wilson

"We are completely dependant on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system.... It is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied very soon." --Robert H. Hamphill, Atlanta Federal Reserve Bank

"The Federal Reserve Banks are not federal instrumentalities..." -- Lewis vs. United States 9th Circuit 1992

"The Federal Reserve banks, while not part of the government…" -- United States budget for 1991 and 1992 part 7, page 10

"The Federal Reserve bank buys government bonds without one penny..." -- Congressman Wright Patman, Congressional Record, Sept 30, 1941

"The Federal Reserve system pays the U.S. Treasury 020.60 per thousand notes --a little over2 cents each-- without regard to the face value of the note. Federal Reserve Notes, incidentally, are the only type of currency now produced for circulation. They are printed exclusively by the Treasury's Bureau of Engraving and Printing, and the $20.60 per thousand price reflects the Bureau's full cost of production. Federal Reserve Notes are printed in 01, 02, 05, 10, 20, 50, and 100 dollar denominations only; notes of 500, 1000, 5000, and 10,000 denominations were last printed in 1945." --Donald J. Winn, Assistant to the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve system


"This [Federal Reserve Act] establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the President[Wilson} signs this bill, the invisible government of the monetary power will be legalized....the worst legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by this banking and currency bill."-- Charles A. Lindbergh, Sr. , 1913

"From now on, depressions will be scientifically created." -- Congressman Charles A. Lindbergh Sr. , 1913

"The financial system has been turned over to the Federal Reserve Board. That Board administers the finance system by authority of a purely profiteering group. The system is Private, conducted for the sole purpose of obtaining the greatest possible profits from the use of other people's money" -- Charles A. Lindbergh Sr., 1923

"The [Federal Reserve Act] as it stands seems to me to open the way to a vast inflation of the currency... I do not like to think that any law can be passed that will make it possible to submerge the gold standard in a flood of irredeemable paper currency." -- Henry Cabot Lodge Sr., 1913

"When you or I write a check there must be sufficient funds in out account to cover the check, but when the Federal Reserve writes a check there is no bank deposit on which that check is drawn. When the Federal Reserve writes a check, it is creating money." -- Putting it simply, Boston Federal Reserve Bank


"I have never seen more Senators express discontent with their jobs....I think the major cause is that, deep down in our hearts, we have been accomplices in doing something terrible and unforgivable to our wonderful country. Deep down in our heart, we know that we have given our children a legacy of bankruptcy. We have defrauded our country to get ourselves elected." -- John Danforth (R-Mo)

"Capital must protect itself in every way...Debts must be collected and loans and mortgages foreclosed as soon as possible. When through a process of law the common people have lost their homes, they will be more tractable and more easily governed by the strong arm of the law applied by the central power of leading financiers. People without homes will not quarrel with their leaders. This is well known among our principal men now engaged in forming an imperialism of capitalism to govern the world. By dividing the people we can get them to expend their energies in fighting over questions of no importance to us except as teachers of the common herd."-- Taken from the Civil Servants' Year Book, "The Organizer" January 1934

"It is well that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." -- Henry Ford

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#307208 - 02/14/05 04:36 AM Mortgage Elimination DOES NOT WORK
Anonymous
Unregistered

Mortgage Elimination doesn't work!

It's usually based on the contention that there is bank fraud.
Perhaps there is some basis to the underlying claims, but the existing processes to eliminate mortgages ARE NOT WORKING.

See: http://www.neodemesne.com/forum

Make it easier to PAY your mortgage by investing in Real Estate. Don't fight the system... utilize it!

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