A check can be returned for up to one year in certain situations, so 11 days won't necessarily protect you against fraud.

The safest way to send money, in my opinion, is by wire transfer.

Dan,
I certainly do not think that you were engaging in a personal attack. Your comment would fall under the 'professional and courteous disagreement' category, IMHO.

My statement about personal attacks was directed to the anonymous posters who took the liberty of making gross assumptions about Shawn's character.

I must agree with Brenda, the safest way to do business with those you don't know is to request that the funds be wired to your bank. Guaranteed that the individual engaged in this scam would never have sent you the "$8,000" as a wire transfer as it would have meant funds out of his pocket instead of yours.

Thanks Jac.

I have noticed that several anon posts in this thread as well as some others I have read seem to have a familiar unfriendly ring to them. Could it be a former recipient of the V2 award?

For customer awareness:
I just found a 9 page booklet that I used for Senior Citizens
security seminars from my old bank, I can email it to interested parties.
It probably needs a some updating, though.

There were several Anonymous posts in this thread. Some were helpful. Some were in that "gray area." Two, I believe, became personal attacks on one of the contributors. I have deleted those posts, since they added nothing to the discussion. If we have no further positive contributions, the thread may be locked as suggested above.

Shawn,
It is my understanding that a check can be returned for faulty endorsement issues for as long as 3 years after it was negotiated. In some circumstances, this time period has been shortened to 1 year. However, if the person negotiating the check is the intended payee, this should not be an issue.

Reg CC and Reg J regulate the time period that a Payor Bank (the bank that is paying the check) has to return a forged or counterfeit check. Generally speaking the Payor bank must return the check by midnight of the banking day AFTER the banking day on which it receives the check.

I am not an expert on processing times for checks between non-local institutions. But generally speaking, depending on the local/non-local status of the Payor bank relative to the Depository Bank (the bank where the customer would deposit the check), I believe it can take up to five banking days for a check to go from the Depository Bank to the Payor Bank, and then another five banking days for the item to get back to the Depository Bank as a return. That is an extreme example, and more generally it takes 2 to 3 days with another 2 to 3 days for return. For local banks (banks that are in the same check processing region), it may be as quick as 1 to 2 days each way between banks. The easiest way to determine if the check you have is from a local or non-local bank is to ask your own bank. You can also look at the list of routing numbers in Appendix A of Reg CC. Within each Reserve District, there are check processing regions. Reg CC - Appendix A, Routing Number Guide

This is one reason why Reg CC allows for an 11 day hold in extreme circumstances. That would be 11 BANKING days which translates to just over two weeks time.

So you can wait after the 11 banking days, or you can also try contacting the Payor Bank to see if the item has been paid. When you call the Payor Bank and ask if the item has been paid, you should also ask if the item is still eligible to be returned.

This is more the case with a private party check than a Cashier's Check. A Payor Bank SHOULD know if the item in question was a legitimate check. What can happen with a private party check is - the check comes in through the check clearing system and is paid against the account. Later that day, a levy comes in to attach available money in the account. The levy (and any number of other legal enforcement actions or actions by the account holder) takes priority over any checks which must then be returned unpaid.

It is my understanding that after the deadline has passed for the Payor Bank to return the check, it must now pay the check. The only reason the Payor Bank may still be able to return the check is if the endorsement was forged (for instance, if you stole someone else's check and forged their name to cash or deposit it), or if there are other obvious alterations on the face of the check (example: You received a check for $40 and put in an extra "0" to make it $400 and then cashed or deposited it.)

Again - I am not an expert in all of the backroom processing for check clearings, so if someone else can clarify what I've written, please do so.

Shawn - final comment - I don't know if you want to soften the harsh language aimed at banks on your website. While we should be used to this as much as lawyers are, we still cringe when all of banking gets labled with the "Bad Banks" brush.

>>I have asked all of my branch managers and head tellers to make sure every one reads and understands the memo. I do not know what else I can do to prevent another victim>>

Just knowing that the scam is out there and making your tellers aware of what to look for may save several people, and for that I thank you. You are doing what you can and if we all just do a little it will make a huge difference in the long run.

Again, thank you for spreading the word!
Shawn

>>There are times when you can hold an item 2 banking days, unless the item was deposited on the first Tuesday of the month following the first Monday after the full moon of a month ending in "Y." Okay - I exaggerate, but that's how convoluted some of the rules get.>>

This is why I am not a banker . . . too many rules to remember!

I am really learning a lot from all of you.

Shawn

>> the bank is the loser in this case and IMO they didn't do anything wrong under the circumstances>>

Since you do not know all of the details behind why the bank settled with us, I do not think that you can say that they did not do anything wrong. There were many other factors involved in our case besides the information dealing with the counterfeit cashier's check, and because of the settlement agreement I cannot go into detail about them, but even without the cashier's check we would have had a very strong case against them.

Shawn

>>final comment - I don't know if you want to soften the harsh language aimed at banks on your website. >>

As you can imagine, I started the website in the middle of all of this unfolding, so yes I will agree, I do come down a little harsh on my bank. Until now I have not gotten anyone within the banking industry to talk to me about these scams or how the system works, or what can be done to improve the protection for all. After speaking with all of you that have helped me here, I am planning on updating some parts of my website.

I only work on emails and the website a few hours per day, so I will try to get to it soon.

Shawn

>>Had the teller given you the explanation above and you been appreciative of the advice, the funds would have still been in the account when the check was returned and you would have been out exactly the same amount of money. >>

Actually, no I would not have because of this line . . .

>>A depositary bank cannot know or even estimate when an unpaid item would be returned - it may be days or, in some cases, years before the item is returned by the drawee bank>>

This line would have caused me to not go through with the transaction at all. This is exactly the information that I, and a lot of the other victims, wanted from our bank.

My husband and I said that if there was any chance that this could come back at us, then we would not go through with the sale. This disclosure would have shown us that there would be that chance.

I have posted a poll to my message group asking the other victims if this disclosure would have made them handle things differently also.

I know that it is probably too much to think that banks would ever add this type of long detailed disclosure to their account information, or give it to customers who ask about funds available vs. check clearance, but as a customer and a victim I can say that this would have been all I needed to make a difference.

Shawn

Shawn - (and folks please forgive me for stretching this long thread out even further...)

One more word of caution that you should know if you are sharing information with other victims - and that is...
If the check is from Canada or any other foreign country, all bets are off. Reg CC and the check processing rules DO NOT apply to Canadian checks (which are most common) or any other foreign checks.

One of the problems with the Canadian Lottery Scam is the fraudsters will send a very official looking check which the victim deposits. The fraudsters even ADVISE the victim to wait 10 days or two weeks for the check to clear. Then the fraudster will contact the victim and tell them they need to wire $$$ to pay for the tax on the lottery winnings. Of course, right after they do that, the "Canadian" check comes back.

If you or any of your friends or victim group members receives a Canadian or other foreign check, they should have it sent for collection.

BTW - all of this is probably why more and more people are now using PayPal for auction payments. (NOTE - this is not an endorsement of PayPal but merely an observation.)